I did not say that Vietnam and Korea were “right”. I said they were fought under the umbrella of “fighting communism”. I further said that the coup against Mossadegh was justified using the same rationale. In Iran’s case, the argument that Iran would fall to communist pressure was a joke. Iran already had a General Assembly , and under Mossadegh, the chances for a lasting democracy with a great relationship with the West (mod England) were quite good. That is , of course, until the coup. Now look at the situation in Iran.

There are many factors which contributed to the escalation of the Vietnam War : JFK’s assassination, LBJ’s association with Brown and Root (which profited to the tune of billions from the war). The pretext for escalation, the Gulf of Tonkin, was a fraud (See Howard Zinn or James Bamford). US wars always have very nice, neat tidy packages so the American public can’t be too confused about an issue, like “fighting communism”, or “instilling democracy” , or “freeing an oppressed people” (although I don’t see Amercian forces in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza) , or “Manifest Destiny” , which rationalized a genocide of millions of Native Americans (if you really wanna shed a tear, read Dee Brown’s “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee”) . Not many people know that Hitler’s Final Solution was inspired by the US government’s treatment of Native Americans. The Final Solution was not at first an extermination plan as it was a removal plan. It eventually morphed into mass genocide, as killing the Jews became more convenient than relocating the Jews. Should the US bare the burden of that crazy lunatic’s vision ? Probably not, but according to Hitler himself, the US gave him the idea.

I just did not want to get into a huge discussion about Vietnam or Korea , because it did not invove the main thesis of my reply.

Just to clarify, I have read estimates like 10,000,000 – 20,000,000 Russians killed by Stalin, probabaly more under Mao, 6,000,000 Jews by Hitler, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were responsible for a huge chunk of the population, though the numbers less “frightening”, the devastation was the same in all the arenas.

The thing is I was not alive back then to protest those events and US involvement. I am here today, and can comment on CIA atrocities, which are still happening, baseless wars, governmental disinformation, the shredding of our Constitution (did you know that people who quote the Constitution too often fit the profile of a terrorist (by the Patriot Act)), unbalanced foreign policy, Corporate America and their imperial schemes, secrets of the gov, and the list goes on and on and on. There is no end in sight to the problems facing the US. It bothers me to hear anchors and officals of the government paint this rosy picture of the American way of life.

The article Johhny B referenced contained some stats, well I have some more:

4% of the population of the world consuming 27% of the world’s natural resources. 4% of the world consuming 40% of the world’s oil supply (thank “Big Oil” in the 1950’s that shot down mass public transportation legislation which would decrease the US dependence on oil), 60% of Americans are overweight, while 40% are clinically obese, while sub-Saharan Africans eat once a week if they are lucky. The US spends more money on “defense” than the next 7 countries ranked behind us combined, and “defense” is not correct, as we use these forces “offensively”. Where were these taxpaying dollars at on 9/11? Where was the brilliant air defense along the eastern seaboard? There were 13,000 murders in the US a few years back. I don’t like digging for numbers, but I think Canada had like 50 or so, France had like 40, the UK 80 or so , Germany had like 30, and the US had 13,0000. And it wasnt because of the ease with which people can get guns. Canada has higher per capita gun ownership (and public healthcare) than the US. It is because we are a barbaric society. I was at the golf course prior to the Iraq invasion, and this girl who works behind the counter , when I started arguing the baseless war with an idiot golfer friend of mine, said, “we should bomb the hell out of all those countries”. Don’t think she is in the minority either. Violence is commonplace, we have been programmed to accept it as the norm, but one must take a stand.

I am wondering why the lack of response to the Northwoods Operation, as that was put there to shock some of you. Why was there no response about Iran and Guatamala, and the World Court’s ruling. Did you not find some of that information contrary to the standard line?

I know I’ve rambled a bit in this quick reply, but respond and we can continue discussing.


Posted at 06:57 pm by Scottie

Posted by John B @ 12/09/2004 10:42 PM PST
Scottie, those numbers on murders aren’t right. US is at 13,000, France, UK, Germany are each close to 1000. US has about 300 million to those countries 200 million combined. So that makes the US about 2.5 times more barbaric than those countries, instead of the ten-fold numbers you cite. You are probably referring to hand gun murders or something.

Source: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 – 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

Posted by Johnny @ 12/09/2004 10:44 PM PST

I shouldn’t put words in your mouth. I should have put, “One can view one war as bad and another war as good: …etc” In the words of a great scholar, my bad.

Posted by BP @ 12/10/2004 09:10 AM PST

I appreciate the statistics, exagerrated or not, however, how does our being overweight and greedy for resources, (and crime ridden, I suppose) make the government corrupt? Those are what one would call “talking points”, and just not relevant to the topic at hand.

Furthermore, I think promoting the idea that Americans are just fat, lazy, ignorant, deluded, militant, barbaric, sycophants doesn’t lend itself very well to boosting your notion of a “referendum” government. Do you really want the populace you are describing to have the ability to directly vote on issues of national security.

You can’t have it both ways Scottie.

Posted by mishel @ 08/25/2005 12:54 PM PDT
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